Maemo Wiki Mirror - User contributions [en]

Task:PIM

2008-11-02T19:45:56Z

80.0.224.233: /* General/shared features */

This page started as a consequence of this ITt thread: [http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24654 Did you say PIM? Come here please].

* Vote on current enhancement requests or open new ones at http://bugs.maemo.org
* Summarize more complex proposals here or in new wiki pages.
* Link to good and bad ideas, projects, examples out there.

This exercise is as useful to Nokia as to the own community and 3rd party developers in seeing what are the great ideas and points of most interest. And the names able to move them forward. Think visionary. Think Harmattan. Squeeze your brains showing that you are getting it so right.

== General needs ==
In trying to ''move outside the PIM-trap'', please list here the things you want to do with your tablet related to managing your daily life. Who knows, maybe there are better ways of doing "PIM" besides of the regular Calendar+Todo+Addresses approach.

* Knowing where I need to be today
* Knowing where I need to be next
* Knowing where I was last friday at four

* Knowing when I have free time next week / month
* Knowing if I'm free tomorrow at six

* Knowing the context of my events (work, studying, hobbies, friends)

* Seeing all the times I've been to place X or met person Y
* Having the device notify me if it notices that I'm running late or forgetting something (GPS, location awareness?)

* Using the data from my previous calendar when migrating to tablets
* Browsing my events on my computer and cell phone. I should have all the contacts from my cell and computer on the tablet, and changes should be updated elsewhere automatically.

* Making notes quick
* Finding my notes later easily
* Classifying my notes (work, school, misc.)

* Initiating a phone call to my friend from my tablet

[[User:naranek|naranek]]

* Getting related information I'm not actively looking for as a side effect:
** Postal addresses show up in map application as POIs (get people-related info when I'm not in "Contacts")
** Instant messaging application highlights contacts with birthdays (get time-related info when I'm not in "Calendar") [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 12:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's not forget there's a context outside Maemo - Ovi.com, the user's dektop etc. - Regardless of the necessity to "think outside the box", do we have a common understanding that when we say PIM, it means ''at least'' Calendar+Todo+Addresses+Notes+Syncing? [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 09:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally only use the calendar from the usual PIM software, so I hope others can chime in on the needs that the other software fills. We certainly shouldn't limit ourselves to anything at this point. (I also have trouble staying logged in so I'm writing anonymously. Sorry about that.) [[User:naranek|naranek]]

== Desired Features ==

=== General/shared features ===
SIMPLE views for the UI dialogs. most of the time as a user I do not require all these things, yes we '''need''' them there, but an option to dumb down or remove the extra stuff would be really important to me.
* for instance, most todo items for me simply need a description, once they are on the list I know they need doing

--[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 22:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The GTD philosophy is to collect simply and easily, and process later. A quick entry option would be wise - or a tabbed interface like mCalendar or Pimlico Dates.- [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]

Allow items to be tagged with more than one tag and allow filtering on multiple tags.
* So, a contact may work for Company X, be alumnus of school Y and be a part of SIG A. I would like to be able to assign tags "X", "Y", and "SIG A" and later filter on any of these tags to find all my contacts who work for "X" and were once in "Y" etc.

-- [[User:cyta|cyta]]

Some things aren't essential but really help. For example, a context-sensitive zoom... for example, in Pocket Informant, you tap on a day in the month grid and that day grows to take most of the grid space, and everything else squashes down to minimum size.

Palm's newer address books did this too, as you scrolled through the names with the hardware keys, the currently selected one was double the height, and had much bigger fonts.

I can see how this could extend also to the todo list, too --[[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]] 01:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

the current app manager kindof does this --[[Special:Contributions/80.0.224.233|80.0.224.233]] 19:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

=== Calendar ===
#* Calendar function with '''iCal''' support - import/export functions
#* Multiple calendars (ie. work, home, hobbies, school..)
#* Interaction (or import from) with Web enabled calendars - namely Google, Zoho Planner, 30 Boxes
#* Integrate Calendar with Addressbook component - for easy inter communication between apps
#** Automatically import anniversairies and '''birthdays from addressbook''' oponent and calculate (current age e.g.) - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#*** Do we want to "import" as in "import once" or do we want to automatically have birthdays/anniversaries displayed in calendar if option checked? I'd prefer the automatic way. [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 12:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
#* Interact Calendar with Web Browser - so as to enable opening a web link from a Calendar event directly
#* Allow generic and open format of Calendar data - so that it can be used by 3rd party apps as well (i.e. sqlite)
#* Synching
#** Support '''syncml''' to synchronize dates to mobile phone and a server pim database (e.g. funambol, evolution) - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#** '''Support CalDAV''' - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#** Support '''synching over bluetooth''' and wlan - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#* Interaction with email program - allow to open a mail with a specific date attached - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#** Better yet, copy the mail body into the notes field of the event. - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#* Monthly grid view
#** Multi-day events - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#** Multiple calendars - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#** Quick-glance task identification - icons? - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#* Integrate to-do items into schedule - items with no date should show up on 'today' - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#** wouldn't that get very messy quickly? have options for the display [ ] events [ ] tasks [ ] mails ... ? --[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 22:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
#*** most PIM apps on, say, Palm do this already. The options are typically to hide undated, or only show tasks that are pending. Mails are completely unnecessary, if it's a task that's mailed, it will typically already be converted into one or the other. - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#* Repeating events - [[User:vre|vre]]
#** Repeating options similar as in GPE or in Date Book for PalmOS (check Garnet VM)
#** An event can be changed so that all occurences change accordingly
#** An event can be removed from the middle of repeat
#** Events can be removed for a period, or for all future events from the selected day
#** An individual event's time/date can be adjusted so that the other occurences does not change (decoupling)
#** An individual event can be renamed without changing the rest of the occurences (decoupling)

=== Address Book ===
#* import/export functions
#* Integration with the Calendar component - allow for cross application interaction
#* Import/export from web Contact apps - namely Google Contact, Yahoo Address Book etc.
#* Allow user added fields (e.g. 4 mobile phone numbers if needed, 2 URLs for office/private website) - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#* Either allow multiple format masks for fields like phone numbers or do not enforce a format on them.
#** (E.g. "US" formatted phone numbers just look wrong in other countries) - [[User:cyta|cyta]]
#** Agreed, most of the best contact apps do not enforce formats. - [[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]]
#** Still: Assuming that voice call applications will access the data, we face the following problem: Synced data ends up on or, more likely, comes from the cell phone. A lot of people follow the carriers' advice and use the international prefix there. (like "+431555123" for the number 555123 in vienna (01), austria (0043).) VoIP-carriers sometimes don't handle this well and expect 0+area code+number instead or 00+country code+area code+number for international calls. This is most annoying and currently prevents dialling directly from the address book. One possible solution would be to have each voice call application handle this. The other would be to offer a call to the PIM-database for such applications to retrieve "+"-prefixed numbers in a user-defined way, like: "replace +43 with 0". Having this boring part centralized in the PIM-framework could even make it more powerful: in combination with a geolocation-API, the rules could depend on where I am. (if I'm abroad, replace +43 with 0043) - nobody would do something like this for only 1 voip application, so it'd be cool to have it in the PIM. [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 19:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
#* Integrate with Maemo email client - so as to allow selection/adding to and from the addressbook and email client together
#* Allow active web links from any contact information to interact with Web browser.
#* Allow generic and open format of Calendar data - so that it can be used by 3rd party apps as well
#** should be '''VCARD''' - look for best suitable VCARD definition - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#* Synching
#** '''Support syncml''' to synchronize contacts to mobile phone and a server pim database (e.g. funambol, evolution) - [[User:asys3|asys3]]
#** Support '''synching over bluetooth''' and wlan - [[User:asys3|asys3]]

=== ToDo List ===
#* Items should have start date, deadline, priority, tags as well as description and completed (and completion date).
#* Should optionally be finger-friendly (especially relevant for to-do lists)
#* Subtasks/Projects
#* Integration with sites like ToodleDo or RememberTheMilk.
#* Recurring tasks
#* Categorized/tagged filtered view
#* Include options for items to fire an alarm not only at a certain time, but also at a certain place ("remind me when I'm at...")
#* Make tasks visible in calendar too, start date to deadline (similar to no time event in PalmOs date book)
#* After completing: hide or show as done (this could be adjustable view from a menu)
#* Multiple lists (home, work, hobbies) - basically a tag also.. but tied with calendar and addressbook and their separate groupings
#* Should be viewable (and zoomable) by context or tag. Zoom will take the current filtered/grouped level and elevate it to the top or root level, so that nothing else is visible. Good for focusing on a project, or showing tasks only relevant to a context ("At Office", "Out shopping")

=== Syncing ===
*Sync on a per-profile basis; (Nokia could pre-configure profiles like Ovi)
*Sync from/to desktop as well as to services on the internet
*Let user define sync options (refresh from server, overwrite, sync 2 ways....)
*Maybe central place in settings or in a dedicated sync application to do these settings. "Sync now!" only from applications. (Simpler this way?) [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 12:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

== User Interface Considerations ==
There's a choice between the "one application PIM suite" (as Outlook, Evolution) and many smaller applications.
I guess on a tablet it makes sense to offer smaller "per-use-case"-applications the way the Pimlico suit currently does. [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 09:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is an example of a per-use-case approach. This won't be useable for all use cases of calendar, but for browsing on the move this would be great, because it is also very easy to use with the 4-way navigator. The idea is presenting the calendar as a menu where you navigate toward the information you want. It doesn't require starting a separate program, just start clicking from a calendar button.

Because of [https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3788 Bug 3378] I can't add the images to the wiki, but see the following links to see what I mean.
[http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot01.png Image 1] [http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot02.png Image 2] [http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot03.png Image 3] [http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot04.png Image 4] [http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot05.png Image 5] [http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot06.png Image 6]
[http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/sshot07.png Image 7]
I made a quick & dirty demo with the bookmarks. You can try it yourself by downloading and importing [http://naranek.wippiespace.com/n800/Calendar-final-2.html this file] to bookmarks:
I have only filled one day and made paths that lead to it from week, month and year routes so you get the idea. The numbers are there mostly to keep the items in order. This would need a nicer way of going back in the structure, and browsing long lists up and down, but it's just quick & dirty prototyping anyway. [[User:naranek|naranek]] [[Special:Contributions/80.221.22.253|80.221.22.253]] 10:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

== Technical Design Considerations ==
I'd appreciate a design where we concentrate an application framework for data storage and retrieval. This should be the central part of the OS and used by stock applications as well as 3rd party apps. End user applications like "Address Book" and "Calendar" or "Syncing" access this database, but can be changed by the user without loosing data.
This way, it's also easier to avoid the "PIM trap" (who coined this phrase?) because there's no need to built the one great PIM application. A map application (instead of Contacts) can show postal addresses as POIs, a IM roaster (instead of Calendar) can highlight people with birthdays today or within one week, ... PIM mashups instead of PIM trap. [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 12:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

== Status of current PIM apps ==

Could we list what's good and what's missing in the various current PIMs?
Might give us an idea of where to start improving things (especially for those who've not used all of them)

I've started with a few apps I could find, there are doubtless others, please add them (and urls, and change the urls there if there's something better)
--[[User:Lardman|Lardman]] 30 Oct 2008 21:56 UTC

----

=== Pimlico Dates ===
http://www.pimlico-project.org/dates.html
==== Good ====
==== Bad ====
*Seems like its no longer actively developed for Maemo

----

=== Pimlico Tasks ===
http://www.pimlico-project.org/tasks.html
==== Good ====
==== Bad ====
*Seems like its no longer actively developed for Maemo

----

=== Pimlico Contact ===
http://www.pimlico-project.org/contacts.html
==== Good ====
*Same database as stock "Contacts" application; works as extended view to postal address and other data stored on the tablet, but not shown normally
*Part of an already usable workflow that includes syncing with SyncEvolution
==== Bad ====
*Seems like its no longer actively developed for Maemo
*Bad cosmetics. Looks terrible.
----

=== GPE Calendar ===
http://gpe.handhelds.org/projects/GPE-calendar.shtml
==== Good ====

Has :
* Day view
* Week view
* Month view
* List view

Can publish/retrieve to/from remote iCal servers (eg eGroupware)

Has multiple calendars (eg remote, work, social)

Has reminder service

Can publish/export as iCal

==== Bad ====

* Missing Native sync support
* No Two-week (or 3-day) grid view
* No Year view
* Missing Per task formatting (icons would be nice) --[[User:boxofsnoo|boxofsnoo]] 21:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
* No options for start/stop of the day, or time increments (15 min, 30 min, 1 hour)
* No options for non-shaded/combined weekends
* Slows down to a crawl when there are a lot of events in the database.
* Editing repeating event changes all occurences and delete removes current or current and all future, no other options
* When entering an new event, end date(+time) does not automatically update when start date(+time) changes
* When entering an new event it takes much more work to change time and date that for example on Date Book on PalmOS (check GarnetVM)

----

=== GPE To-do list ===
==== Good ====
* Categories
* Ability to purge completed tasks

==== Bad ====
* Buttons are too tiny, even for stylus use
* No subtasks/projects or tags
* No start date
* No integration with calendar (apart from applet)
* No alarms on due date

----

=== GPE Contacts ===
==== Good ====
* Quick lookup 3-letter tabs on left
* Search
* Categories

==== Bad ====
* Does not integrate with Mail
::then probably doesn't integrate at all, right? (IM, internet call...) [[User:ossi1967|ossi1967]] 18:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
* First, Last name display is not configurable, sort looks off
* First, Last name parsing is often wrong. Needs at least 2 separate fields
----

=== mCalendar ===
http://www.khertan.net/mcalendar.php
==== Good ====
* finger friendly
* in active development
* desktop integration
* maemo targeted

==== Bad ====
* Grid views missing
* Can't deselect an online calendar from sync - all or nothing
* Can't enter tasks into subcalendars
* Tied only to Google calendar
* No iCal import

----

=== slapd ===
Small but fully featured addressbook engine

----

=== kdepimpi ===
https://garage.maemo.org/projects/kdepimpi/
* For more information please see: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15566

----

=== osmo ===

Preliminary [http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14774 port]. The 0.2.2 port is compiled with experimental SyncML but does not support some newer features (such as exporting iCal). The 0.2.4 port is compiled without experimental SyncML support.

==== Good ====
* Supports SyncML (experimental)
* Supports iCal (import & export)
* Supports birthdays
* Supports calendar (including day, week, month, year, moon, zodiac details)
* Supports todo list
* Supports contacts list
* Supports notes with encrypted storage using libgringotts
* Supports libnotify
* Supports striking out past events, placing accent on deadlines or due events
* Customizable colours and fonts

==== Bad ====
* While GTK2, not Hildonized nor very touch _finger_ friendly (stylus usage is OK)
* While has option to invoke 'tinygui' with argument -t or --tinygui this does not work well (on the NIT?)

----

=== SyncEvolution ===
http://www.estamos.de/projects/SyncML/
==== Good ====
*Syncs Contacts and Events via SyncML servers (like ScheduleWorld.com)
*Result fully integrated with stock applications as well as Pimlico Dates/Contacts
*Great customization
*Works well in daily use
==== Bad ====
*Command line only, need to edit config files
*No direct syncing (desktop to tablet)

== Other links ==
* http://chandlerproject.org/
* http://sourceforge.net/projects/osmo-pim --[[User:Lardman|Lardman]] 1 Nov 2008 10:17 UTC
----

[[Category:Community]]
[[Category:Development]]

Task:Remarkable community projects

2008-10-19T11:28:38Z

80.0.224.233:

{{Template:100Days agenda}}
{{task|completed}}

''This is a subtask of [[Task:Defining maemo]] and is coordinated by Dave Neary.''

There are hundreds of community projects around Maemo, but some are especially remarkable, providing a unique contribution to the project.

Getting a list of these projects would help to
* Improve their quality and promote them as ''ready to primetime''.
* Highlight to externals some of the amazing stuff the Maemo platform can offer.
* Bring attention, testing, contributions, new users to them.
* Indicate to Nokia what is really worth promoting in their Maemo related activities.
* Cheer up the ego of promoters and contributors. :)

==Criteria==
Propose criteria to select projects.
* '''Alive''': Maintained regularly and available in the last stable release.
* '''Open''': community feedback and contributions are part of the project - open source is a very good factor but not a must.
* '''Stable''': feature set complete, installs flawlessly, works, doesn't harm the system, secure.
* '''Finger/thumb UI''': stylus to be required only in exceptional and evident cases (e.g. drawing apps).
* '''Decent design''': visually attractive and/or simple interface that works just as expected.
* '''maemo.org active''': available in extras, complete information page in Downloads.
* '''Non commercial''': Not developed by Nokia or commercial partners.

=== Proposals for Fremantle Stars ===
List your proposals below. Add your comments supporting/against. Provide links to their pages at http://maemo.org/downloads to get more information, see screenshots and try them out.

==== Release quality ====

* [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemopadplus/ Maemopad+]: pressure-sensitive sketching, available in Extras, now in development again with focus on fixing Usability issues and finger-friendliness
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemo-mapper Maemo Mapper] [[Image:Star.png]]: Most downloaded application for Maemo. Best map application. Can interact with lots of different mapping sites, including OpenStreetmap.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/numptyphysics Numpty Physics] [[Image:Star.png]]: This game is educational, hard, fun. Made for the stylus.
* [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/scummvm/ ScummVM]: Point-and-click adventures are great for touchscreens, some free-as-in-beer games are available (Beneath a Steel Sky, etc..)
* [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/gpodder/ gPodder]: Finger-friendly UI, highlights the Internet aspect of the tablets (download podcasts); regular releases, many Maemo-specific UI changes; performance issues are worked on; tablet-related podcasts exist (example: [http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=27204&cmd=tc]) - downloading podcasts directly on the mobile device is a thing that you can with Nokia's tablets and gPodder, but not with iPhone/iPod touch right now
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/xournal Xournal] [[Image:Star.png]]: A great notes/sketch utility. One of ''few'' apps that utilize the pressure sensitivity of the screen! Invaluable to create and annotate PDF documents on a pocket computer.

==== Alpha/Beta quality ====
*[http://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-barcode/ maemo-barcode]: Alpha quality, could be a very cool application with some integration and interface development.
*[http://garage.maemo.org/projects/liqbase liqbase]: Beta (now in extras-devel) playground for sketching with kinetic graffiti with fullscreen tearfree refresh. finger friendly and FAST. shows off your tablet in the best light.
== The Best of Maemo Applications ==
'''Please do not list new proposals directly here'''. These are projects that accomplish most of the criteria above. They be available in the Maemo 4.1 extras repository and offer a Download page in maemo.org. Add you comment if you think any of these candidates is not fit enough for the top selection, or belong to a different category. Apps marked with [[Image:Star.png]] appear now [http://maemo.org/downloads/featured/OS2008/25/ in the list of featured Maemo applications].

===Born for Maemo===
Remarkable projects targetting primarily the Maemo platform.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/canola2/ Canola2] [[Image:Star.png]]: Canola is a media consumer: photos, music, videos...local or remote, you name it.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemo-mapper Maemo Mapper] [[Image:Star.png]]: Most downloaded application for Maemo. Best map application. Can interact with lots of different mapping sites, including OpenStreetmap.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemo-wordpy Maemo WordPy] [[Image:Star.png]]: Blogging software that hooks to WordPress and Blogger accounts, allows image uploads, post creating and editing, tagging. Especially notable for its finger-friendly menu.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/mediabox/ MediaBox] [[Image:Star.png]]: A nice, simple UI for viewing photos and movies. Not as 'bare-bones' as Mplayer, not as 'tricked-out' as Canola2.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/mytube/ mYTube] [[Image:Star.png]]: An youtube browsing/downloading/playing application.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/numptyphysics Numpty Physics] [[Image:Star.png]]: This game is educational, hard, fun. Made for the stylus.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/vagalume Vagalume] [[Image:Star.png]]: Last.fm is my favourite music site, and Vagalume is my favourite Last.fm client.

===Very nice ports===
Remarkable projects successfully ported to Maemo.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/mplayer/ MPlayer] [[Image:Star.png]]: Simple UI, provides the best playback performance for mpeg4/divx/xvid video on Nokia 770/N8x0.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/evince/ Evince] [[Image:Star.png]]: Evince is a document viewer for multiple document formats. It currently supports pdf, postscript, djvu, tiff and dvi.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/ines/ iNES] [[Image:Star.png]], [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/fmsx/ fMSX] [[Image:Star.png]], [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/colem/ ColEm] [[Image:Star.png]], [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/speccy/ Speccy] [[Image:Star.png]], [http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/vgba/ VGBA] [[Image:Star.png]] - all fms's emulators - great ports of his original ones.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/xournal Xournal] [[Image:Star.png]]: A great notes/sketch utility. One of ''few'' apps that utilize the pressure sensitivity of the screen! Invaluable to create and annotate PDF documents on a pocket computer.

===Outstanding utilities===
Remarkable projects successful in a focused mission.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/advanced-backlight/ Advanced Backlight] [[Image:Star.png]]: Replaces the default Volume and Brightness applets with a unified applet that also provides rotation orientation selection.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/erminig Erminig] [[Image:Star.png]]: Allows a two-way sync between Google Calendars and the GPE calendar on the N810.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/load-applet/ Load Applet] [[Image:Star.png]]: Because being able to see when/why the system becomes slow makes a huge difference in user experience.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/statusbarclock/ Large StatusBar Clock] [[Image:Star.png]]: A configurable digital clock for the statusbar.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemo-recorder Maemo Recorder] [[Image:Star.png]]: Turn your N8X0 into a dictaphone. Very useful.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/mirage/ Mirage] [[Image:Star.png]]: Opens many file formats; allows for simple photo editing on the tablet.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/mogg/ mogg] [[Image:Star.png]]: Although not as ideal a solution as DSP-side decoding, the best we've got at the moment.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/omweather/ OMWeather] [[Image:Star.png]]: Critical app. When this didn't work for a whole day after the Diablo release, I had to look outside!
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/personal-menu/ Personal Menu] [[Image:Star.png]]: Sidebar plugin, customizable menu for launching up to 36 installed applications or arbitrary commands.
*[http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/worldtv99/ WorldTV99] [[Image:Star.png]]: TVs around the world on your tablet. Best Edutainment without monthly fee

Talk:Drivers justification

2008-07-17T13:52:01Z

80.0.224.233:

List hardware here which is underutilised/undocumented

PowerVR

3d rendering (hopefully onto 5mbit on omap2420 SARAM buffer

IVA

Conversion from RGB to YUV, decoding video frames, scaling and blitting bitmaps

5mbit SRAM
Possible use as an RGB framebuffer for powervr/flat x11 surface.
Would require the IVA to convert and push this RGB data onto SDRAM "standard" surface for the Epson LCD to display on screen quickly.

<jott> lcuk: have you actually tried to investigate accessing the sram?
<lcuk> where is it... ?
<lcuk> this is what documentation is all about
<jott> lcuk: drivers/video/omap/dispc.c atleast reads "#define OMAP2_SRAM_START 0x40200000"

AFAIK it is already used. 5mbits is VGA resolution. It is currently used as 'video plane' i.e. some sort of overlay. omapfb driver support more (3) planes and this 640x480 video plane in SRAM is used for media playback by stock media player. [[User:fanoush|fanoush]]

fanoush, can you shed some light on how its used by the mediaplayer? We realise its vga resolution but it would be a start.
also, what is the point in 3 planes when it can barely send 1 plane fast enough. as a base enabler for 3d and faster graphics it would be an ideal start. --[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 21:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

the reason for more planes is simplicity and speed, each plane can be enabled/disabled separately and framebuffer update (sending data to epson chip) merges those planes and gives priority to the video one (i.e. sends data only from the topmost one) so it works like overlay on desktop (and is used in same way by Xv ?). The reason for using SRAM is speed and maybe dispc can also do some operations only in SRAM, it was briefly explained by dstone on mailing list at the time second OS2007 update came with significant video speedup. Also maybe some/same plane is used by camera for similar reasons. BTW this is maybe not best place to go into details :-) [[User:fanoush|fanoush]] 08:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

As for the media player, more correct is perhaps to say that that VGA plane in SRAM is used for implementing Xv support in xserver so anything using Xv should use it too. I'm not 100% sure about SRAM being really allocated and used but whole multiple plane support with possibility of different per-plane memory type (quite complicated code) was added to kernel with that OS update so it would be insane to write so much code and complicate stuff in a big way and then not to use it. I also believe (but can be wrong) I've seen the code with plane definitions in kernel but can't find it now. [[User:fanoush|fanoush]] 09:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on the multi plane support, it can be used to help double/triple buffering.
As for actually making use of the SRAM I am not so sure. The dispc.c omap display driver below does make use of it: its expected to, it is the driver for the direct omap2420 display. however from what we can gather this is not loaded for the n8x0, we use the omapfb/blizzard chain which uses regular DDR.
If mediaplayer can allocate/use memory for its own private purposes, we should be able to as well. --[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 10:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

as for double buffering - perhaps yes, planes are not equally fast and big but one could enable/disable one of them and draw into the other and force region update. As for dispc I believe it is _is_ used. It has remote mode and can send data over rfbi (not so much different than feeding LCD directly). So there are two similar ways - draw to sdram and push it to epson chip or draw to sram and let dispc to do it too. I believe this is used because dispc can do scaling on the fly too so for larger frames you can cheat and actually send less data and overcame slow rfbi interface this way (downscaling done by epson is useless here, you want to minimize size of source data sent, not destination). It is all pretty crazy, never seen before drawing to screen scattered over so many different drivers used in combination. As for verifying plane location it should be quite easy to add some debug code when iterating over planes and print plane memory type. Maybe it is even printed to kernel log at boot time. [[User:fanoush|fanoush]] 12:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

i was under the impression the dispc framebuffer driver was used on ti development boards within monte-vista and not touched or initialized at all by maemo at present. we initialize omapfb and talk to the blizzard low level interface without mention of any on OMAP memory (technically the blizzard doesn't even know or care that it is sitting on an OMAP motherboard).
With the omapfb, there are multiple planes and from what I understand all are allocated in standard SDRAM.
The way I am thinking of utilizing the SRAM would be to allocate a buffer similar to the dispc SRAM based frambuffer, then after rendering, update a frame by pushing the data out to the already allocated blizzard SDRAM buffer (using the IVA to perform RGB->YUV conversion if required per the display mode) and then tell blizzard to update.
Sure, its a longer path but right now (because of lack of information) I am not sure we can tell the powervr to render directly to SDRAM. If it is possible it may also give applications a fast RGB pixelbuffer to do non 3d fancy things which are limited at present by SDRAM access speeds. --[[Special:Contributions/80.0.224.233|80.0.224.233]] 13:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I believe the ompafb we do use was originally created to support the omap1 processor family which had to use an external lcd because it did not have a SRAM framebuffer or direct video out from the chip (it didnt have its own graphics card). --[[Special:Contributions/80.0.224.233|80.0.224.233]] 13:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

http://mxr.maemo.org/diablo/source/kernel-source-diablo-2.6.21/kernel-source/drivers/video/omap/dispc.c

Word "justification" in the title implies that we are supposed to justify it to Nokia (or other IP holder) why we need this information. For good justification, we have to show what value IP holder gets from disclosing information, not what value the community gets. Here is the justification I suggest:

* Among Maemo community there are many people who are willing to perform for free work that companies would have to hire embedded software engineers to do.
* Some of these people have already proven that they have enough qualification to do the job.
* An embedded software engineer costs company at least $75,000 on the average. Thus, if somebody does the same work for free, this leads to direct cost savings to IP holders.
* Even if a project is of no direct interest to the IP holder at this moment, there is no cost to the IP holder, so there is no risk.
* Just about any popular system functionality extension to the Maemo platform (A2DP, rotated display, etc.) greatly increases value of the platform to end users (not necessarily developers). Therefore, even if the company sees no direct use for the feature, it still helps the company to sell more products.

What do we expect from Nokia and other IP holders:

* Give certain qualified people from the Maemo community access to documentation after signing all proper NDAs.
* Give these people some qualified advice from engineers inside the company.
* Accept work from these people and integrate it into official software releases as necessary.

selfless link to liqbase, whether it needs to be seen on the frontpage to show the differences to normal rendering?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUPp_mE7rwI

== The GPL violation issue ==

I have started circulating the draft and I got already some interesting feedback.

So we have a driver used strictly internally and strictly for R&D purposes. This driver was done for the 2.4 kernel. When moved to 2.6 we have problems with GPL license violations, which we could ''solve'' in three ways:

# Keep the driver as it is and leave the driver installation to you. This way we do not distribute GPL violating drivers, but this way you are using GPL violating drivers.
# We hack the GPL checking from the kernel we will ship, so no GPL violation (but loads of upset kernel developers?)
# We spend a lot of time and money rewriting the driver to be shippable without any kernel changes or violations (not very feasible on our side, I tell you)

Note that in the points above we are not even mentioning TI, who needs to agree in the game since at the end they are the ones licensing the driver.

This is not last word. I will be posting here feedback as I get it.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 10:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
:IANAL, but I don't think (1) is viable: the driver is still a derived work, even if you don't bundle it yourself. (2) would cause so much negative press as to be unbelievable and would cause serious harm to the platform (and so the community). One possible option would be to contract an external community member (or members) under NDA to receive the driver and its source with the understanding that it is not for distribution. For all intents and purposes this is therefore still Nokia internal use. That developer can then do option (3). --[[User:jaffa|Jaffa]] 11:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Drivers justification

2008-07-17T13:31:54Z

80.0.224.233:

List hardware here which is underutilised/undocumented

PowerVR

3d rendering (hopefully onto 5mbit on omap2420 SARAM buffer

IVA

Conversion from RGB to YUV, decoding video frames, scaling and blitting bitmaps

5mbit SRAM
Possible use as an RGB framebuffer for powervr/flat x11 surface.
Would require the IVA to convert and push this RGB data onto SDRAM "standard" surface for the Epson LCD to display on screen quickly.

<jott> lcuk: have you actually tried to investigate accessing the sram?
<lcuk> where is it... ?
<lcuk> this is what documentation is all about
<jott> lcuk: drivers/video/omap/dispc.c atleast reads "#define OMAP2_SRAM_START 0x40200000"

AFAIK it is already used. 5mbits is VGA resolution. It is currently used as 'video plane' i.e. some sort of overlay. omapfb driver support more (3) planes and this 640x480 video plane in SRAM is used for media playback by stock media player. [[User:fanoush|fanoush]]

fanoush, can you shed some light on how its used by the mediaplayer? We realise its vga resolution but it would be a start.
also, what is the point in 3 planes when it can barely send 1 plane fast enough. as a base enabler for 3d and faster graphics it would be an ideal start. --[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 21:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

the reason for more planes is simplicity and speed, each plane can be enabled/disabled separately and framebuffer update (sending data to epson chip) merges those planes and gives priority to the video one (i.e. sends data only from the topmost one) so it works like overlay on desktop (and is used in same way by Xv ?). The reason for using SRAM is speed and maybe dispc can also do some operations only in SRAM, it was briefly explained by dstone on mailing list at the time second OS2007 update came with significant video speedup. Also maybe some/same plane is used by camera for similar reasons. BTW this is maybe not best place to go into details :-) [[User:fanoush|fanoush]] 08:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

As for the media player, more correct is perhaps to say that that VGA plane in SRAM is used for implementing Xv support in xserver so anything using Xv should use it too. I'm not 100% sure about SRAM being really allocated and used but whole multiple plane support with possibility of different per-plane memory type (quite complicated code) was added to kernel with that OS update so it would be insane to write so much code and complicate stuff in a big way and then not to use it. I also believe (but can be wrong) I've seen the code with plane definitions in kernel but can't find it now. [[User:fanoush|fanoush]] 09:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on the multi plane support, it can be used to help double/triple buffering.
As for actually making use of the SRAM I am not so sure. The dispc.c omap display driver below does make use of it: its expected to, it is the driver for the direct omap2420 display. however from what we can gather this is not loaded for the n8x0, we use the omapfb/blizzard chain which uses regular DDR.
If mediaplayer can allocate/use memory for its own private purposes, we should be able to as well. --[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 10:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

as for double buffering - perhaps yes, planes are not equally fast and big but one could enable/disable one of them and draw into the other and force region update. As for dispc I believe it is _is_ used. It has remote mode and can send data over rfbi (not so much different than feeding LCD directly). So there are two similar ways - draw to sdram and push it to epson chip or draw to sram and let dispc to do it too. I believe this is used because dispc can do scaling on the fly too so for larger frames you can cheat and actually send less data and overcame slow rfbi interface this way (downscaling done by epson is useless here, you want to minimize size of source data sent, not destination). It is all pretty crazy, never seen before drawing to screen scattered over so many different drivers used in combination. As for verifying plane location it should be quite easy to add some debug code when iterating over planes and print plane memory type. Maybe it is even printed to kernel log at boot time. [[User:fanoush|fanoush]] 12:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

i was under the impression the dispc framebuffer driver was used on ti development boards within monte-vista and not touched or initialized at all by maemo at present. we initialize omapfb and talk to the blizzard low level interface without mention of any on OMAP memory (technically the blizzard doesn't even know or care that it is sitting on an OMAP motherboard).
With the omapfb, there are multiple planes and from what I understand all are allocated in standard SDRAM.
The way I am thinking of utilizing the SRAM would be to allocate a buffer similar to the dispc SRAM based frambuffer, then after rendering, update a frame by pushing the data out to the already allocated blizzard SDRAM buffer (using the IVA to perform RGB->YUV conversion if required per the display mode) and then tell blizzard to update.
Sure, its a longer path but right now (because of lack of information) I am not sure we can tell the powervr to render directly to SDRAM. If it is possible it may also give applications a fast RGB pixelbuffer to do non 3d fancy things which are limited at present by SDRAM access speeds. --[[Special:Contributions/80.0.224.233|80.0.224.233]] 13:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

http://mxr.maemo.org/diablo/source/kernel-source-diablo-2.6.21/kernel-source/drivers/video/omap/dispc.c

Word "justification" in the title implies that we are supposed to justify it to Nokia (or other IP holder) why we need this information. For good justification, we have to show what value IP holder gets from disclosing information, not what value the community gets. Here is the justification I suggest:

* Among Maemo community there are many people who are willing to perform for free work that companies would have to hire embedded software engineers to do.
* Some of these people have already proven that they have enough qualification to do the job.
* An embedded software engineer costs company at least $75,000 on the average. Thus, if somebody does the same work for free, this leads to direct cost savings to IP holders.
* Even if a project is of no direct interest to the IP holder at this moment, there is no cost to the IP holder, so there is no risk.
* Just about any popular system functionality extension to the Maemo platform (A2DP, rotated display, etc.) greatly increases value of the platform to end users (not necessarily developers). Therefore, even if the company sees no direct use for the feature, it still helps the company to sell more products.

What do we expect from Nokia and other IP holders:

* Give certain qualified people from the Maemo community access to documentation after signing all proper NDAs.
* Give these people some qualified advice from engineers inside the company.
* Accept work from these people and integrate it into official software releases as necessary.

selfless link to liqbase, whether it needs to be seen on the frontpage to show the differences to normal rendering?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUPp_mE7rwI

== The GPL violation issue ==

I have started circulating the draft and I got already some interesting feedback.

So we have a driver used strictly internally and strictly for R&D purposes. This driver was done for the 2.4 kernel. When moved to 2.6 we have problems with GPL license violations, which we could ''solve'' in three ways:

# Keep the driver as it is and leave the driver installation to you. This way we do not distribute GPL violating drivers, but this way you are using GPL violating drivers.
# We hack the GPL checking from the kernel we will ship, so no GPL violation (but loads of upset kernel developers?)
# We spend a lot of time and money rewriting the driver to be shippable without any kernel changes or violations (not very feasible on our side, I tell you)

Note that in the points above we are not even mentioning TI, who needs to agree in the game since at the end they are the ones licensing the driver.

This is not last word. I will be posting here feedback as I get it.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 10:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
:IANAL, but I don't think (1) is viable: the driver is still a derived work, even if you don't bundle it yourself. (2) would cause so much negative press as to be unbelievable and would cause serious harm to the platform (and so the community). One possible option would be to contract an external community member (or members) under NDA to receive the driver and its source with the understanding that it is not for distribution. For all intents and purposes this is therefore still Nokia internal use. That developer can then do option (3). --[[User:jaffa|Jaffa]] 11:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:24:54Z

80.0.224.233:

== Overview ==

The Nokia Internet Tablets contain a number of components which are not documented or utilised at all.
We believe these components are holding back further development and advancement of the platform.

If we had drivers and documentation for each element we could get the most out of our devices.

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (e.g. Windows Aero on Vista, Quartz on Mac OS X, and Compiz
on Linux desktops). Embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing, and interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops" and making that acceleration available to applications as well.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM Framebuffer ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

This is semi documented within http://mxr.maemo.org/diablo/source/kernel-source-diablo-2.6.21/kernel-source/drivers/video/omap/dispc.c

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR (or 2d from the CPU or IVA) onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Talk:Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:23:36Z

80.0.224.233:

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:23:18Z

80.0.224.233:

== Overview ==

The Nokia Internet Tablets contain a number of components which are not documented or utilised at all.
We believe these components are holding back further development and advancement of the platform.

If we had drivers and documentation for each element we could get the most out of our devices.

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (e.g. Windows Aero on Vista, Quartz on Mac OS X, and Compiz
on Linux desktops). Embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing, and interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops" and making that acceleration available to applications as well.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

This is semi documented within http://mxr.maemo.org/diablo/source/kernel-source-diablo-2.6.21/kernel-source/drivers/video/omap/dispc.c

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR (or 2d from the CPU or IVA) onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Talk:Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:13:04Z

80.0.224.233:

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:07:42Z

80.0.224.233:

== Overview ==

The Nokia Internet Tablets contain a number of components which are not documented or utilised at all.
We believe these components are holding back further development and advancement of the platform.

If we had drivers and documentation for each element we can get the most out of our devices.

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (Vista and e.g. Compiz
for the Linux desktop) and embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing and
interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops", let alone applications which
can also use the acceleration.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR (or 2d from the CPU or IVA) onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:05:03Z

80.0.224.233:

== Overview ==

The Nokia Internet Tablets contain a number of components which are not documented or utilised at all.
We believe these components are holding back further development and advancement of the platform.

If we had drivers and documentation for each element we can get the most of our our devices.

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (Vista and e.g. Compiz
for the Linux desktop) and embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing and
interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops", let alone applications which
can also use the acceleration.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR (or 2d from the CPU or IVA) onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T18:00:47Z

80.0.224.233:

== Overview ==

The Nokia Internet Tablets contain a number of components which are not documented or utilised at all.
We believe these components are holding back further development and advancement of the platform.

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (Vista and e.g. Compiz
for the Linux desktop) and embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing and
interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops", let alone applications which
can also use the acceleration.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR (or 2d from the CPU or IVA) onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T17:57:49Z

80.0.224.233:

== Overview ==

The Nokia Internet Tablets contain a number of components which are not documented or utilised at all.
We believe these components are holding back further development and advancement of the platform.

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (Vista and e.g. Compiz
for the Linux desktop) and embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing and
interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops", let alone applications which
can also use the acceleration.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Drivers justification

2008-07-16T17:53:18Z

80.0.224.233:

== PowerVR MBX ==

The N8x0 devices contain a 3D graphics processor, which is currently not used. We (the
Maemo.org) community would like to ask Nokia to release a driver for this component so
that we can develop more advanced GUIs, games and <...>.

With desktop computers, 2D and 3D effects are becoming the norm (Vista and e.g. Compiz
for the Linux desktop) and embedded devices such as the iPhone are also using graphics
acceleration (in that case a PowerVR too) to provide very polished, visually pleasing and
interesting interfaces to the their respective "desktops", let alone applications which
can also use the acceleration.

We believe that having access to the graphics acceleration hardware on the N8x0 will
allow developers to create new and compelling interfaces, applications and games, which
will give us a head-start in developing for future Nokia Internet Tablet devices (which
will presumably have 3D acceleration available from the outset).

Therefore, we would like to ask Nokia to make available to us the PowerVR driver and
OpenGL ES implementation. We understand that the driver in question has some issues (e.g.
stability, awkward implementation details - console must be left open, etc.), but it
would be a great help.

Ideally we would like the source code for the driver, support library and OpenGL ES library,
but we understand that this is ImgTech's IP and therefore they will probably be unwilling
to support this; as a second we would like a binary-blob style driver, which can then be
used with different Linux kernels, but we do not know whether this is the form the
current driver takes, or if it would entail extra effort and expense for Nokia (it would
surely be in Texas Instruments' and ImgTech's best interest to do this, to push the use
and acceptance of their technology, but that is a moot point in this discussion). As a
last option, we would simply like access to the existing binary driver, support library
and OpenGL ES library.

== IVA ==

The OMAP2420 contains something called an IVA (imaging and video accelerator), which we
are told (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf) is able to do full motion video
encoding/decoding at up to 30fps and also fast JPEG compression/decompression. This
hardware is not used at present, but is apparently able to do quite a lot. The Internet
Tablets are currently limited by the LCD controller bandwidth, but are also limited by
the ARM CPU in the quality and size of the videos they are able to decode.

We would like to know why the IVA is not being used, and if possible to obtain technical
information about it to allow us to program and use it. We understand that it consists of
an ARM9 core plus some coprocessors to speed up a variety of operations including VLC
(variable length coding/decoding) and iMX (programmable parallel operations).

Being able to use this IVA would greatly enhance the abilities of the Internet Tablets as
a multimedia device for both photos/photo manipulation and video watching (currently
videos must be encoded specifically for it, which is fine as they become smaller, but
with cheaper microSD storage available now, the convenience of having the same data files
outweighs the inefficiency of storage).

== 5 Mbit SRAM ==

The OMAP2420 contains a 5Mbit SRAM buffer which is meant to allow a VGA display (http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/TI_omap2420.pdf).
According to our research, this buffer is not being utilised by this device.
We believe this buffer is required as a destination render target for the PowerVR.
This onchip framebuffer will provide a very fast RGB surface for use in X11 and SDL gaming.

== Bringing it together ==

On their own each component has limited purpose and use, however a work flow which involves rendering 3d objects with the PowerVR onto the 5Mbit SRAM buffer which can then be converted from RGB to YUV and copied to main DDR memory by the IVA would allow us to achieve improved performance over the current all software approach.
We have software which successfully confirms there is enough bandwidth between the main memory and the Epson LCD chip using a specialised YUV mode, however it will require the help of the hardware components listed above to bring these benefits to all software running on the device.

Talk:Drivers justification

2008-07-16T17:40:58Z

80.0.224.233:

Talk:Drivers justification

2008-07-16T17:39:47Z

80.0.224.233: New page: List hardware here which is underutilised/undocumented PowerVR IVA 5mbit SRAM Possible use as an RGB framebuffer for powervr/flat x11 surface. Would require the IVA to convert and ...

List hardware here which is underutilised/undocumented

PowerVR

IVA

5mbit SRAM
Possible use as an RGB framebuffer for powervr/flat x11 surface.
Would require the IVA to convert and push this RGB data onto SDRAM "standard" surface for the Epson LCD to display on screen quickly.

Talk:Maemo Summit 2008

2008-07-03T18:50:40Z

80.0.224.233:

== Super idea ==

Maemo summit is a perfect idea. It gives the project more publicity, which is crucial at this time of new goals etc.--[[User:kozuch82|kozuch82]] 23:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

==Accommodation==
Some people living in or near berlin (including me :)) could provide accommodation in their residences. I think I have space enough for two people...
An other idea would be something like: [http://www.couchsurfing.com/] --[[User:jukey|jukey]] 15:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:Beyond that, it would be also good to know about an affordable hostel. Any ideas?--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 20:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:: The location of the summit is here: [http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&q=rungestra%C3%9Fe+20,+berlin&sll=52.523451,13.323373&sspn=0.007873,0.018797&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=addr] Some colleagues gave me the following tips:
::* [http://www.diefabrik.com/3-1-rates.html Die Fabrik] (from 18 EUR/person/night - 2,6 km away from the summit place) [http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&hl=de&geocode=&saddr=Schlesische+Stra%C3%9Fe+18&daddr=rungestra%C3%9Fe+20,+berlin&sll=52.512261,13.419842&sspn=0.007875,0.018797&ie=UTF8&z=15 route from hostel to summit place]
::* [http://www.hotelpensionberlin.de/hotel/preise.php?o=1357&startdatum=2008-09-01&p=1&s=de BaxPax Hostel Kreutzberg] (from 12 EUR/person/night - 2,4 km away from the summit place) [http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&hl=de&geocode=&saddr=Skalitzer+Str.+104&daddr=52.503187,13.421001+to:rungestra%C3%9Fe+20,+berlin&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=15&via=1&sll=52.50546,13.417139&sspn=0.015752,0.037594&ie=UTF8&z=15 route from hostel to summit place]
::* [http://www.hostelxberger.com/index.php?show=preise&lang=eng Hostel X-berger] (from 12 EUR/person/night - 2,8 km from the summit place) [http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&hl=de&geocode=&saddr=Schlesische+Stra%C3%9Fe+18&daddr=rungestra%C3%9Fe+20,+berlin&sll=52.512261,13.419842&sspn=0.007875,0.018797&ie=UTF8&ll=52.505669,13.431301&spn=0.015751,0.037594&z=15 route hostel to summit place]
::* [http://www.aohostels.com/en/berlin/apartment-mitte/apartment/rates/ Apartment for up to 4 persons] (from 79 EUR/appartment - 1km from the summit place) [http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&hl=de&geocode=14407242129449315458,52.503158,13.420980&saddr=K%C3%B6penicker+Str.+127-129&daddr=rungestra%C3%9Fe+20,+berlin&mra=pr&mrcr=0&sll=52.507811,13.418941&sspn=0.015751,0.037594&ie=UTF8&z=15 route from hostel to summit place]
:::::::::::::::::::::::--[[User:jukey|jukey]] 14:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Lightning sessions ==

These are really brief sessions of 5 minutes approx i.e. demos. You can propose yours below:
* i would like to present (properly this time) liqbase to an eager crowd - would need travel/accom arranging --[[User:lcuk|lcuk]] 12:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

== BoFs and workshops ==

List below your proposals for activities. There are thought to be highly participative i.e. discussion about an area of the platform, workshops, etc:

* Here

== About sponsorship ==

Oskari from Nemein is working on the registration. As soon as it's ready we will use it to get sponsorship requests. We have a limited budget for sponsoring people and one of the keys to get more contributors covered is to find cheap &b decent accommodation, since a lot of €€€ goes there if badly planned. Same for intercontinental flights.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 17:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I gather we request times/dates and specifics after acceptance? [[Special:Contributions/80.0.224.233|80.0.224.233]] 18:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Travel ==

:I just saw ryanair offers free flights from Stansted to Berlin on the dates of the Summit (September 18th to September 20th). Only taxes apply, so it's only £20 to go back and forth by plane. From what I recalled, flights were 6AM on friday, 9PM on sunday, but their website just went blank, so I can't check it again. I'll try to see if it also works from other places. I don't know what you kind of discounts you get, but this might be interesting to look into. I'll check again when the website's back up --[[User:crashanddie|crashanddie]] 11:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Agenda ==
Would it make sense to reserve a 30 minutes slot after or instead of the briefing session for a key note speaker summarizing/repeating the core announcements of OSIM? --[[User:peterschneider|peterschneider]] 10:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

== Trademark and Branding ==

Under the [[Maemo_summit_2008#Nokia_and_Maemo:_Next_Iteration|Nokia and Maemo: Next Iteration heading]], there are two things that are listed improperly. "Maemo software" should, presumably, be "Maemo Software" and "Maemo.org" should ''definitely'' not be capitalized. —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 18:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
::Changed. However, this is copy&paste from the OSiM program that won't be changed. The text was requested several weeks ago, before the branding discussion.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 19:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Meta:Anonymous editing

2008-06-21T16:02:24Z

80.0.224.233: test

''Anonymous editing'' allows people without a maemo.org account, or users not logged in, to edit pages in the wiki.

This has two side effects:
# It is much easier for people to edit (and hopefully, improve) the content of the wiki.
# It is possible for people with accounts to make changes anonymously, when they intended to be logged in; and therefore lose any karma benefits.

The current policy on anonymous editing in the maemo.org wiki is under discussion.

ahhhh, anon over https is still available ;)

Talk:Task:Community Council

2008-06-21T07:18:14Z

80.0.224.233: remove spam

==Community Council==

Mmm... It is probably benefitial for the maemo community and for the dialog with Nokia to have some structure. We are doing effective steps towards this: some people get admin rights, some people might become QA evaluators in the extras repositories, some people receive are more visible and push for certain things in a structured way... However, also with my community shirt I think that 10 days of brainstorm is not enough to define a proposal, and probably 100 days are not enough to implement it either. So, what about 100 Days for the community to discuss and agree on the way to be formally structured?--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 08:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:Possibly true - however I'd want to avoid us getting into too long talking about a process which can be enhanced/refined at a later date, and get some of the structure in-place sooner. Perfectly happy to go with the consensus on this (since it's necessary for it to work ;-)) --[[User:jaffa|jaffa]] 10:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
::Alright, you have the (obvious) pre-agreement on my side. Please discuss and once there is an agreed idea create page accordingly and move this content there. Thanks! --[[User:qgil|qgil]] 20:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a good idea but I think it too early to do this. I suggest to do this after the 100 days when all maemo is well defined and everyone's on the same page with what maemo is and what's its direction. --[[User:rsuplido|Reggie]] 14:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
:Perhaps. But there's always something round the corner: it's like buying a computer (or gadget ;-)): if you wait, there's always something better. --[[User:jaffa|jaffa]] 16:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
:Having a focusing agent like the council is more important now than in 100 days after everything has settled and there's nothing to do anymore. —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 20:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
::My point here is, Nokia hasn't officially announced anything yet with regards to all the plans suggested. I heard Ari and the maemo.org team are officially announcing something at the [[Maemo_summit_2008|Maemo Summit 2008]]. If the decision is 100% (or a good percentage) community run, then it's all good. There are lots to do after the 100 Days - mainly implement, prioritize, and streamline the plans, and keep things organized, as what is defined in the 'Roles of the council' below. --[[User:rsuplido|Reggie]] 13:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Nokia aren't 'supposed' to be announcing anything official with regards to all the plans suggested: this is a community action plan, and has very little to do with Nokia (albeit lots to do with [[User:qgil|qgil]]'s role of community manager). Unless Nokia are going to fundamentally change the purpose of maemo (and maemo.org), there will still be times when they ask for the "community"'s input. And for that we need a way of the community speaking with one voice. --[[User:jaffa|jaffa]] 13:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Agree on the community voice. I would still like to hear [[User:qgil|qgil]]'s thoughts on this though, mainly on how much say/control Nokia will have, and/or if the community can override Nokia. Maybe Nokia will just be in the sidelines and watch maemo.org takes its course. --[[User:rsuplido|Reggie]] 14:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::Nokia likes the idea of maemo.org being really a community driven site, moving the official content and software releases to Forum Nokia or somewhere else under the nokia.com domain and control. Having a growing and engaged community willing to assume more responsibilities and power is part of the common success. In this sense the community council is helpful if it's representative and backed by the community. Note the difference between maemo.org activities and the planning, development and release of the official maemo software. There Nokia keeps the same control as now. The structured community might have more influence, power to lobby and to organize alternative maemo variants at their will, though. Personally I have no problems about starting this task now. My only personal concern as community member is to go so fast that the community doesn't follow and then we have a not-really representative council, unable to canalize the hundred voices and becoming at the end one source of feedback more to deal with. This risk is probably the same now and in 100 days, though. If you take a 'release soon & often' approach open to iterations until consolidating the model, then starting soon shouldn't be a problem per se.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 19:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

== Monthly IRC meetings ==

We already have #maemo-meeting for IRC-discussion with Quim, should the Council IRC meetings be something separate and additional to that, or integrated with the #maemo-meetings? —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 03:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:Integrated, IMHO --[[User:dneary|dneary]] 13:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:Agreed, perhaps the council members would be the only ones allowed to interact, and any questions would be sent via then --[[User:lardman|lardman]] 12:40, 13th June 2008 (GMT+1)
::Or maybe just act as the moderators who give ''voice'' to others. Otherwise there is a big burden on any council member to fairly represent/ask on behalf of people, and if they cannot live to up that people will get disillusioned, and you will probably see participation wane, except for those people with the ''contacts'' to get their voice heard. My 2 cents --[[User:trickie|trickie]] 12:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:::[http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-May/033419.html Moderation was discussed] after the last #maemo-meeting and I was very against it. So, here's the proposal:

=== New Proposal ===
<nowiki>#</nowiki>maemo-meeting IRC meetings will be held monthly as usual. Since the community issues likely to come up during these meetings are going to be issues the council will be working on, anyway, the council's job should be to help the community develop an agenda each month (to be done in the wiki) and help to the agenda during the meeting.

==== Agenda ====
The council should serve only to help direct the organization of the topic and agenda for #maemo-meetings and to assist in keeping the meetings on-track.

* An agenda for the next month will be set up on the wiki after the end up of the current month's meeting.
** A topic will be decided upon within one week of the opening of next month's agenda
** The agenda for the next meeting will be finalized at least a week in advance of the next meeting (which gives time for Quim to prepare for the topic and possibly bring guests appropriate to it).
* The council should make attendees aware of both the meeting and the topic and agenda for the next meeting.

==== Meeting management ====
Any attendee should be allowed to talk during the meeting, but attendees are asked to keep questions ''on-topic'' and ''stick to the agenda''. Any chatter during the meeting should be held in #maemo and kept out of #maemo-meeting.

* The room will be set moderated.
* Council members, Quim and any guests, and X-Fade (others?) will be granted operator status for each meeting.
* Meeting attendees will all be granted voice by default on joining (this may actually be more difficult than it previously was with Freenode's new services—will have to test this one)
** Attendees all have the right to speak by default (voice), but they can lose this right for the duration of the meeting after 3 warnings (de-voiced).
** Warnings will be issued by those with operator status for asking off-topic questions or participating in chatter in #maemo-meeting instead of #maemo, 3 strikes and you're out (well, muted).

This plan should prevent any feelings of disenfranchisement and help keep the discussions on-topic and on-agenda.

== Council member karma requirements ==

The current proposal says 100 karma points. Should this be reduced or this requirement lifted or revised pending improvements to the maemo.org karma system? It currently does not include edits from the new wiki, only includes bugs submitted from bugzilla, etc. —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 03:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
: If that's to be a precondition, then the problems with karma need to be fixed first. Notably: [https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2481 bug #2481] and [https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3240 bug #3240], but really there are a bunch of karma-related problems, if the measure actually becomes important for community participation. [https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=&content=karma Here's a list]. --[[User:dneary|dneary]] 13:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

: We should be careful setting arbitrary thresholds. If someone with experience of community work came along and wanted to join, there should be the option somehow, despite the initial lack of karma --[[User:lardman|lardman]] 12:42, 13 June 2008
::Call it "a clear track record with the community" instead? Or maybe just let the voting take care of it? If a nominee really doesn't have what it takes to be a part of the council, then they wont get elected anyway. —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 04:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
:::The point of an arbitrary threshold is to stop subjective decisions as to "clear track records" (and who gets to decide?). Also, to be blunt, I wouldn't want to be represented by someone who had no prior contact with maemo.org and - at best - was "just" active on ITT. ITT "thanks" should be included in the karma count, but isn't this supposed to be what karma is for?! An arbitrary limit will mean some people would be excluded, but if they're that eager can't they then do the work to get the karma? The council members have to represent the community - how can they do that if they've not been active in it to date. --[[User:jaffa|jaffa]] 19:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

== Council voting karma requirements ==
The karma requirement for voting has the same issues with the current limitations of the karma system. I also am concerned that if the council is going to represent the community, then we shouldn't be setting a high a barrier to voting, otherwise it will only be representing a certain part of the community. Perhaps alternative requirements such as being registered on maemo.org for at least 6 months (for example) could be used in addition to ensure voters have sufficient experience of maemo. --[[User:pepitoe|pepitoe]] 14:07, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

At the moment the proposal says 50 karma points are the minimum for voting for a candidate. I prefer the "usenet style" where everybody (with an valid mail adress and real name) is allow to vote for e.g. a new newsgroup name. It should be a small problem to vote vor 50 maemo.org applications to get enough karma for the vote. I think it should be enough to have a valid maemo.org account. No minimum karma points are needed. Maybe for the council itself but not for the right to vote.

The karma thing ''could be'' (''not 'is' '') a nice indicator for the number of community activities. And not more...
--[[User:jukey|jukey]] 14:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:I like this plan. So, the maemo.org account must exist for at least 6 months (maybe set something of an amnesty and make it 1 month for the first elections, since I know a lot of people don't yet have maemo.org accounts), exceptions will be made for new accounts less than 6 months old (or 1 month for the first election?) with more than 25 (?) karma points. —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 04:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
::For me the proposal "after X month having a maemo account" everybody should be able to vote sounds much better than "after collecting x karma points people are allowed to vote". Because of the 6 month phase between two elections 3 month should be enough. So people have to wait 3 to 9 month to wait for the next election, what seems time enough to me.
::But all in all the ''best'' way ''I think'' would be: Everybody with a maemo account should be able to vote - no minimum for acount-having-time or karma.--[[User:jukey|jukey]] 11:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:::That's a logical OR, so users with young accounts who do participate and contribute can still vote. The idea with these requirements is to avoid having people open fake accounts to skew the votes. While it may seem harsh, I don't think the dubious advantage of letting zero-participation users vote outweighs this. Besides, it's not difficult to get together 25 karma points. --[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 14:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Good points. Have we got the account age information, though? (Certainly not in any current UI, IIRC - will have to ask X-Fade or ferenc or someone if it's in the DB). This is related to the minimum-karma points required for nominees: we don't need minimum-karma thresholds for nominees if the community can be "trusted" to vote "sensibly" (IYSWIM). However, how can the community as a whole trust it's voice if there's no minimum threshold for the "quality" of the people voting. One of the aims of the council is to streamline and co-ordinate the community's response when Nokia want to know "what the community thinks", a lot of that is representing all of the people who are ''currently'' contributing and marshalling that response. Obviously, a wider aim is to increase participance and represent the people who are currently unheard; but I think these aims may have slightly different requirements in terms of council rules. --[[User:jaffa|jaffa]] 21:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

== Merging with Task:Community Council ==

Hi, what about mergin this page and [[Task:Community Council]]. Until now I'm indetifying as "Task:" those pages to wormk on something, to avoid people getting confused with the Something (if you know what I mean).--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 11:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:Done —[[User:generalantilles|GeneralAntilles]] 11:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks! (The "Task:" practice wasn't strong enough to avoid the confusion about the logo contest though) :)