Maemo Wiki Mirror - User contributions [en]

Talk:Task:ITt Collaboration

2012-07-24T13:34:29Z

37.113.9.196: /* kwefwdfdgdfsdfg */ new section

''(((Discussion moved from main page)))''

maemo.org and ITt services should integrate much better i.e. maemo.org Downloads syndicated in ITt and ITt users getting maemo.org karma.

* Each application (version) that is syndicated on Internet Tablet Talk, starts a new thread in the forums so end-users get notified of new apps as well as provide a way to give feedback to the developers. Developers themselves can also join in the discussion. This, hopefully, will help to better the quality of applications.
:''What would be the point of most the garage facilities then? I am not convinced that developers will all go looking at ITT for feedback (some projects work like that, but most rely on mailing lists and irc for example). If there was to a ITT thread for user feedback then maybe add to it a big fat 'report a bug on package x' or 'contact developers of package x'. --[[User:trickie|trickie]] 12:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)''
::''I second that. Forums are not suitable for regular development, and taking the discussion away from the tracker facilities is a bad thing - the people will keep reporting bugs on the forums rather than filling a report. Besides, lots of developers don't read forums, they are counter-productive and take a lot of time. Users or developers can start threads for their apps on their own, but I see no reason to make this obligatory. --[[User:zap|zap]] 14:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)''
:::''The goal here is to get the average to not so average end-user to get involved, solicit feedback from them, and hopefully provide a good discussion between other users and ultimately improve the apps. No one, even the developers, are required to join the discussion but it will be healthy for the community to discuss the app and not just report bugs. --[[User:rsuplido|Reggie]] 14:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)''
* Provide a way for developers to easily add a bug at the application's Garage page for confirmed bugs reported in the discussion thread.
:''We have agreed with ITt on the general idea. It's something urgent and it would be definitely good to see it in the 100 Days. The specific plan to be discussed in an open page, either here or in ITt or both. In any case, it's clear that the feature is "syndication". Then ITt or whoever can benefit from that, and are the developers of each piece of software that decide if they want to direct the user feedback to ITt, their garage project, the project website, etc.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 06:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)''
::''A solution could be to add a bugtracker field to the entry in the application catalog. This could then point to the developer's own bugtracker, the maemo bugtracker or a thread at ITt. This could be done on a short term and be a temporary solution until we implement a global bugtracker. --[[User:xfade|xfade]] 13:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)''

* Today we have too many channels (ITT, maemo.org...). Maybe have some more focus like: maemo.org for developers and ITT for end users and something that links them so software releases can be announced automatically on ITT and users from ITT can easily post bugs on garage bugzilla for example.
:''Perhaps develop a plan, but this isn't specific enough to achieve in 3 months, IMHO --[[User:jaffa|jaffa]] 22:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)''
::''I'm not convinced that two channels is too many, either. —[[User:generalantilles|generalantilles]] 20:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

=== Discussion Forums ===

3. Effectively replace "iTT Software Section" with #2 from this list.

:: About 2 and 3 - I thought we all agreed on that here: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20261, just compiling a single list won't solve the dependency hell. [[User:bundyo|bundyo]] 19:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

:: It will not but then it is not the goal of 2. The goal is to supplement the current half-baked Application Installer app with a quickly modifiable online interface for searching and selecting applications. This will help users to find more applications and in the same time it will help developers to figure out just how exactly application installer should work. Instead of waiting for the next OS release, it is really easy to modify the web interface and see which modification is better. Later, the real App Installer can be designed to have the same or similar interface.
::: I can see what your idea is, but i don't think the user will be happy when his/her NIT falls into a reboot loop due to some library replacement. Not good for official, but maybe will be good for the developers to see what is already ported and not doing it again. [[User:bundyo|bundyo]] 20:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
:::: Situation where a library used by some other application is being upgraded can be checked and reported to the user, as a warning. And no, of course I do not suggest that this system is associated with Nokia in any way: Nokia can't be held responsible for all the repositories out there.
::::: Well, then it should be discussed as kind of an upgrade to Gronmayer's site, maybe with him? [[User:bundyo|bundyo]] 21:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::: Definitely: after all, he has all the code already. Replicating it is extra work. As to the UI, I have got a mock up already, if anybody is interested (http://fms.komkon.org/Maemo/). [[User:fms|fms]]

== Out of scope ==

1. Fix iTT's style sheets so that they work well on MicroB! It is a joke that a site dedicated to internet tablets cannot be effectively viewed with an internet tablet.
: Just stylesheets may not be enough - the real problem lies elsewhere: run a Firebug Net test and look at the results - seems like right now the front page is 700k, delivered by 67 requests. Some things take seconds to load, some javascripts are with php extension, thus not using cache, taking precious bandwidth and seconds to load, I'm not sure I see the reason for that. Things that can be done to get it faster - javascript libraries can be compressed with YUI compressor for instance and not served with php so they can cache properly, replace youtube videos with handy links for mytube just for ITs, combine stylesheets and javascripts together, reducing requests, use fewer PNGs with alpha, if any - Cairo probably will have a good deal of trouble displaying them on an IT. [[User:bundyo|bundyo]] 20:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
:: Umgh... I did notice the stylesheet but did not know it was that bad. My suggestion would be to simplify the page rather than use compressor, etc. There is absolutely no reason for this page to be this complicated and take 700kB. It is not doing anything special, just presenting a few views to the reader. Really hope Reggie sees the light at some point and changes his setup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:fms|fms]] 17:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
:Though definitely something that needs doing, it's a bit out of scope for maemo.org. ;) Somebody want to run through the areas where Reggie could optimized and open a thread in the [http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16 Comment/Suggest] forum over there? —[[User:generalantilles|generalantilles]] 21:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
::another itT redesign (tablet-friendly) is planned. --[[User:rsuplido|Reggie]] 20:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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Talk:Task:Defining maemo

2012-07-24T02:47:29Z

37.113.9.196: /* kwefwdfdgdfsdfg */ new section

==Defining maemo==
Asking to define maemo? I do not even really know what maemo was (or still is???). Start with a real newbie section after you have the definition ready.--[[User:kozuch82|kozuch82]] 13:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:Well, this is exactly the point: coming up with clear definitions that even a newbie (or precisely a newbie) would understand.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 18:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::Hm, I think terms like maemo, Hildon and Internet Tablet OS mix together for a newbie.--[[User:kozuch82|kozuch82]] 13:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:::This is one of the reasons behind the proposal at [[Task:Maemo_brand#Definitions]].--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 21:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== Discussion ==

=== What is maemo ===
Discussion moved to [[Task:Maemo brand]].

=== Describing the maemo community ===
Many people see the maemo community as a group of people having Nokia as a counterpart. A more accurate picture would:
* Have Nokia as a community player, describing the activities that are done at a community level.
* Show the relationships with related upstream projects: where the collaboration is happening beyond just using the free software provided.
* Add the many organizations involved in maemo development or research, from companies to universities.

Also, what about

* Go a bit deeper inside the "group of people" and identifying core contributors: more work on karma and user profiles would be needed.

Now the most visible are the one ''shouting louder'' and more often. It would be useful though to identify key contributors in the many community areas: application development, platform hacking, documentation, support, bug reporting, news, marketing...
--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 05:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

--''From a practical point-of-view, isn't maemo pretty much completely dependent on Nokia right now? Are there any viable non-Nokia maemo platforms out there? How much core development is not directed by the Nokia mothership? Claiming independence is counterproductive if it isn't tied to reality. - mee 04:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)''

====Categorise the Community - thoughts====
The section above describes Maemo's place in the greater community.
However, who is maemo serving? (this may be a start on going a bit deeper)

Tech Level 1:
* Users : Windows/Mac desktop users who bought an N800 and want new wallpaper, a neat clock etc.
Tech Level 2:
* Power Users : Install more apps, alternative launchers, alpha/beta sw, up to new distros (eg Debian). More complex networking, ssh, scripting, python, documentation...
Tech Level 3:
* App Developers : Porting/writing gui apps and daemons; may want api info. Need to get to know the various environments.
* WM Developers : Starting to hack on gtk or QT4, the X server etc etc
* Kernel Developers : Fixing kernel bugs, tweaks, backporting, hardware support.

Each of these user types needs information : even an experienced kernel hacker will want to know the current best practice to setup the dev environment (SB1 or 2?)
More importantly pages should be written with an awareness of the target tech level.

Whilst thinking about the levels of user involvement I thought that we could help users self-categorise using some old Doom terms: "Easy", "Bring it on", "Hurt me".
Saves newbies complaining when they start down a path labelled 'Hurt me'...
[[User:lbt|lbt]] 10:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

=== Building a strong brand ===
Discussion moved to [[Task:Maemo brand]].

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Talk:Task:100Days

2012-07-22T19:25:24Z

37.113.9.196: /* kwefwdfdgdfsdfg */ new section

== Next Steps ==
It looks like the 100 Days brainstorm has reached its conclusion. The pre-agreed ideas will be discussed next Tuesday in the maemo.org June sprint meeting. We might add more tasks coming from the current backlog. The ideas ''still under discussion'' should be probably moved to the 2010 Agenda for further brainstorm.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 20:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== Scope of the 100 Days ==

== How can I help? ==

How can I help in this process, as one of the people responsible of the maemo.org planning at Nokia? I could help organizing the content, identifying what is out of scope or what more realistically falls in the Agenda 2010. Or I could just shut up and let you work. :) fyi, in the meantime I'm already working on the maemo.org short and mid term plans internally at Nokia. --[[User:qgil|qgil]] 19:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think a little direction will repress things too much at this point, and I definitely thing it will help stimulate and focus the brainstorm. Not only because of the clearer definition of purpose, scope and direction, but also from the interest a more visible Nokia involvement would make. The end result, of course, being a much more productive session. --[[User:generalantilles|generalantilles]] 20:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
::I will start leaving signed comments, not to touch the original text. Then you decide what to do with it.--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 06:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

== Russian language section ==
Is it possible to create the Russian-language section of wiki ? We would like to move here wiki.internet-tablet.com materials and translations. --[[User:dik|dik]] 22:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
::Interesting, but out of scope in the [[100Days]] work. I recommend you to ask at [[Talk:Maemowiki_Action_Group]].--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 23:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

== Clear and useful planning pages ==

The 100 days page is getting longer. I think at the end what we all want to have is a list of clear actions, being most/all of them links to pages where each action is discussed and planned in detail. Proposal to get there:
* Create pages for those topics that already got interest and meat enough. Move there all their related ideas and comments. This includes the content in this discussion lisrt, since having it hidden here or even duplicated is not going to help.
* Put at the top the items that are pre-agreed: no-brainer stuff, items with lots of community support, items already acceopted by Nokia and/or the maemo.org guys.
* New good ideas are added in the bottom and end up either in the top after being pre-agreed, or moved to other existing pages.
--[[User:qgil|qgil]] 08:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

= Proposals out of scope =
Archiving here proposals that don't fit in the 100 Days exercise. Please relocate somewhere if the ideas are good.

== Update developer libraries ==
* gcc-4.x, glib, powervr, it's important to give developers much more time to play with newer tools than short before a major upgrade takes place (of course with disclaimer that nothing is guaranteed to be shipped in a certain way)
* Update the vmware appliance with sb2 and python2.5 setted. And more publicity on the vmware appliance, as there is already one on garage, but many don't know it.
:''This is out of scope in this maemo.org exercise. About giving more publicity to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-sdk/ and http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/ - it's currently an alpha and the developers don't feel like advertising it much more. But anybody can follow the Garage project and, well, nobody is stopping you from advertise it more. :) --[[User:qgil|qgil]] 07:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)''
::''Alpha status doesn't mean that it is unusable, I use this VM regularly and it works very well. I really think this one should be promoted on maemo.org. --[[User:xfade|xfade]] 13:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)''
::: ''Official x86_64 support will be great or at least i386 on top of x86_64. Other distributions too - some of them only need an alien. [[User:bundyo|bundyo]] 20:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)''

== A few suggestions for developers ==
A few more suggestions for developers - the bottom rungs of the ladder.

1. Validate and verify the tools installation for the current shipping version, particularly the HOWTO. I follow the instructions but nothing builds. At least until I do an apt-get dist-upgrade, update, upgrade or something similar, then apt-get the -dev versions of a half dozen things, none of which is mentioned. Which brings me to:

2. Insure the hello-world will actually build on a system cleanly installed following the exact instructions from step 1. (I had to edit things in mine) and form a deb which will work on a tablet - both install and remove. Also split out stand-alone versions to use as templates (I can't get a statusbar only version to come up as everything seems to be interdependent). Maemopad is a great write template, but a paint template (slightly more than trivial graphic demo) would be nice.

Hildon is not something I've dealt with, and has its own quirks along with GTK. They aren't bad, but I could spend a week just learning the ins and outs. But there aren't very many examples I can just change the icons and add in a chunk of code to do a simple task as a starting point, at least not without doing a lot of searching (e.g. some statusbar clocks are stand-alone).

3. Simplify the autogen/automake/autoconf stuff. Most of this will only be run under fixed releases, so the checking for some specific version of 20 libraries is redundant, and makes the build horribly complicated. Either in scratchbox things are there or not (and see #1 above if they are not! I also have to keep doing apt-gets since I need -dev of everything and often don't have them). Do I really need libtool for a trivial statusbar app?

:Autoconf is actually quite important for code portability, not only across maemo releases (1.0, 1.1, mistral, scirocco, bora, chinook, diablo and so on) but also (and more importantly) across platforms. There is a lot of cross-pollination happening right now, and that's a very good thing IMHO. It will make your life much easier when you decide to port your application to (for example) Ubuntu Mobile, Openmoko or "desktop" GNOME, and it also makes porting stuff from other platforms to maemo simpler.
: Having said that, it is a bit of a learning curve, but perhaps what's needed is more entry-level documentation/tutorials (chapter 5 is a very good start at that) and tools to simplify bootstrapping (like the anjuta plugin).
:: Autoconf is not necessary to write portable software, while making your makefiles unreadable. Therefore, its use has to be made optional.

The goal is that anyone should be able to do a working deb for a trivial off-the-cuff application or status bar, home, or control panel applet in 5 minutes by doing a global substitute (or perhaps changing a few lines of the form: #define APPNAME HILDON_HELLO_WORLD, #define AppName HildonHelloWorld, #define appname hildon_hello_world, etc.) and adding a few lines of code and scaled icons.

And for "garage", there should be one centralized repository, so there would be a "garage" parallel to "extras" with all betas and releases not higher up in the chain. Right now I've got dozens of archives and sources, so when I do a restore it becomes a nightmare getting all the applications back and it makes application manager slower having to go through dozens of archives. It doesn't help having a "garage page" if it is not much better than hosting offsite. But then for all these add-ons I could just do apt-get source and/or apt-get install. Maybe this is what "extras" is for, but it seems to never work or have anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:70.209.165.167|70.209.165.167]] 19:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

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